Thursday, February 21, 2008

LIVEBLOGGING THE DEBATE....


oh my ANOTHER Debate ( what number is this ???)...Thanks Hill .....I don't know about you, but I am sooooo tired of these.....This one is in Texas, and not open to the public ( neither is the Cleveland one next Tuesday). She is now behind by 11 Contests, so I would bet we will see the Shrill Hill tonight, the attacking negative Hill. ( Tonight's event is being moderated by Campbell Brown, so no Wolfie- thank heavens). Will Hill yell ? Will she cry? Will I end up throwing a whole bottle of TUMS ? or will my Swear Jar win great rewards ?

Follow it in the Comment Thread...feel free to join in.

47 comments:

enigma4ever said...

I have been thinking about this all day.....I think if Molly Ivens were here...she would be an Obama supporter.....yup....

enigma4ever said...

Campbell Brown trying to talk about the Debate....crowds cheering...John King and Jorge ( Somebody- could not hear).....

Hillary Clinton wearing a black JCPenny Pantsuit (the Colonel Mustard Outfit has been retired)......getting moderate applause...

Obama getting LOTS of applause...

Gryphen said...

Roar of applause for Obama!

enigma4ever said...

Hill is talking about how she worked Texas ( her mcgovern days....blah blah....)now she is talking about her friend Ann Richards...( really I just don;t see it)....crikey- she is getting misty...I-I-I did this , I did that....Now she is saying that she wants to stop the Insurance Companies to stop Descrimination against people losing Insurance ( yeah? really? ).....blah blah....Big Applause....

Obama:
Waiting for her applause...He sounds like he has a cold...He is being polite....talks about economy....right off (talking about a couple he met going through foreclosure and having health crisis...he sounds like Edwards when he talks about Families he has met).....Talking about Jobs being shipped to China ( ouch Hill)....and also Parents of Iraq Soldiers and the war that should never ever have happened...( hmm, Hill never mentions that off the bat).....( CLAPPING)....13 Monthes we have both been talking about these issues- we both have been talking about THESE problems...."Good Ideas go to die" in DC....( Hill watching- smiling....hmm, what does that mean).....We can bring this country together...we can be straight with the American People....Barbara Jordan was an inspiration " People want someone as GOOD as their Promise" ( great quote)

Applause...

Jorge Ramos:
Question : About Castro resigning will you sit down with Raul and talk - Hill First ?

She actually did not answer if she would sit down and talk- she would expect them to show and make some changes...( so ? would she sit down with him???)THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE EVIDENCE FIRST..
JORGE: WOULD YOU MEET OR NOT?

Hill: Only if there is evidence...

Gryphen said...

Obama is having some trouble hitting his stride here. He seems to be a little uncomfortable.

Hillary seems very at ease.

This makes me nervous.

enigma4ever said...

Hill: minimal applause....

Campbell: Obama you said that you would meet with leaders , is that still true?

Obama:
Yes, I would meet with leaders....there does have to be an agenda of change...it is imp for the US to talk with enemies ( People cheered and clapped)....loosening restrictions and travel rules so people could visit their families...

Campbell:
"are you backtracking?"

Obama:
No, I am not backtracking, I am saying that there has to be a way to shift policy and normalization- but it has to be done in steps....JFK, quote about never negogiate out of fear ( more applause).

HILL:
Well, I agree, about diplomatic processes (even with iran I have said that- NO SHE HASN"T)....there is a difference about when a president to OFFER A MEETING...she now says that JFk would require preparatory work ( what??? he never said that).....I would get back to vicarious diplomacy...Now she talks about the Arrogance of the Bush administration....

Obama:
Preparation is neccessary...but it is important that because of Bush- that the Pres take a more active role in diplomacy- if we treat it as a privelge - to UNDO the Damage- we have to take the extra step- BIG applause...

John King : Economy:
Economy is the dominant issue that voters want to hear about , How are you both different?

Obama :
American People have known for 4 years that they are in trouble....gas to healthcare people have been struggling for a long time....even decades...fairness and balance- our tax code has to change- people shippig overseas and the Bush tax cut...middle class americans need a tax break, senior citizens....need to close the loops holes ( three rounds of clapping)...toys with lead paint should not be coming from foriegn countries....green economy needs to be created ....and we could do this and re- invest and put jobs in place to do this ,,,,Hill and I agee on a lot of this- and so did the other candidates...HOW do we get this done...WORKING COALITION NEEDS TO BE FORMED...it has to be a Priority, esp minimalizeing the special interests- but we need to get Hill a chance on this....

enigma4ever said...

( G: his Economy answer rocked...he has a cold- he talks slower than Hill)

Hill:
Blah bah.....I agree...I have different approach to trade ( trade prosecutor? oh great still making deals....still importing....it needs to STOP...) Vigourous trade enforcement ( good luck)...( NO applause)

Foreclosure issue...moratroium for 90 days, and freeze rates for 5 years ....( she is yelling)....Clean Green Jobs...would put 100 s of 1000's to work...infrastructure.....

End George's Bush's war on Science ( lots of applause- but Campbell cut her off and cuts her off again)


Next Immigration

enigma4ever said...

Jorge:
asking about Immigration...

Hill:
comprehensive reform of immigration , we should crack down on employers....
something about absorbing costs...."path to legalization', paying fine, paying taxes, and learning english.....first 100 days of presidency ( applause).

Obama:
Comp reform I have worked on.....it is critical that we tone down the rhetoric , and hate crimes issue, we need to talk about this in a different way....we are a nation of laws and immigrants and we need to find a way to talk about this...we have to crack down on employers being exploititive.....pathway citizenship....about fix the legal system- and we need to fix that ( Hill missed that point)....and we need to fix the fees...it is descrimatory to people that do not have money. We also must work with Mexico and help them set up jobs within their country...Bush dropped the ball on this- and we do need to work on that....( He got much more into the answer)

Gryphen said...

Okay he is hitting his stride now.

I understand that he may be under the weather Enigma, I am just commenting on how he coming across on television.

This is an important debate and he needs to be very careful not to offer any openings.

enigma4ever said...

John King :
About the Border Fence ?

Hill:
Obama and I voted it as a Security measure....
I was in Brownsville and there is a dumb way and a smart way to do this...and the Fence would seperate the School...Plan is Counterporductive..I would listen to the people on the border.

King:
So are you saying that your vote was wrong or the implemtation was wrong?

Hill:
there is technology that could be utiltized...Imminent Domain being filed...let's deploy more people and technology....and not interfere with relations...

Obama:
Same Question, I think this is an area that we agree, and that the Local jurisdictions need to be listened to .....Survellaince and technology....about this issue...about the 12 million workers that are here- they too must be dealt with - we can not be threatening to deport all of these people....all of these issues can not be isolated- we must deal with these issues together- the influx of peoplel, the border issues- and the documentation,....Pass the DREAM act ( ? I think that is right) I don't want two classes of citizens( BIG applause)

Jorge ( saying something in spanish)(

enigma4ever said...

Jorge:
About Being a Bi-lingual country?

Hill:
Something about English the Main Language ...it should be an important part of the experience and should be unifying..

OBAMA:
I think that everyone learns English. Every student should be learning a 2nd language...students should be learning English if from a bilingual homes...But also Children should be learning other languages...NCLB law....has hurt children on this ( BIG applause)

BREAK......

enigma4ever said...

( E. commentary...Gman..I think he is doing fine..I think he knows that when he speaks slowly and carefully he gets stride...)

Gryphen said...

Obama just pointed out problems with No Child Left Behind and how it has kept bi-lingual programs from getting funded since there is so much focus on testing instead.

I can tell you he just got a LOT of teachers attention.

enigma4ever said...

John King:
Ouch...to Hill" about credibity issues...you say you are "solutions", and that is more important than rhetoric, I have been listening to you on the road down here...."all hat and no cattle" ??

Hill:
I think we have been running a mostly a postive campaign. I do offer solutions....that is what I offer- for 35 years...( blah blah her stomp speech)....there is difference between our accomplishments and records ( and she brings up the Tx. guy that was humiliated by tweety the other night)....


Obama:
Actions do speak louder than words....I have done alot in the past 20 years.....He is listing his accomplishments ( and there is clapping while he talks)...He talks about what he has done for Walter Reed...( BIG applause)...Talking about the "Let's get real" statements by Hill...and also talking about his endorsements by Newspapers I think that people 20 million and the newpapers are seeing that I can bring people together and work together..and he rocked it ...sorry I was listening and got distracted...

Gryphen said...

Did I say that Obama has hit his stride? Well with his answer to her point about him being all talk and no substance he ran her ass right over!

He almost brought the crowd to their feet.

Isn't it too bad that Obama is not good at debates? LOL!

enigma4ever said...

Campbell:
she asked about the "plagarism " issue.....

Obama: words matter....and they matter- Patrick is on my campaign - he is a Co-Chair of my campaign...( BIG applause) I think this is silly- we need to talk about thing that matter like jobs, college, and healthcare...audience is digging him...( lots of interrupting applause)We should be spending time lifting up the Country not to tear each other down.

Hill"
Should be your own words ( she sounds like a frigging mom) SHE IS GETTING BOOED....She won't let it go...but she looks real PETTY...
Dead Silence....

enigma4ever said...

omg now she is bringing up Edwards...now she is rambling....dead silence...golf claps...

enigma4ever said...

now people are clapping because she said she has been doing this a long time.....

Obama is being quiet....writing...

She is rambling...
Campbell stops her...

Obama:
Corrects her and says that he wants Universal Healthcare too- he explains that his plan has not changed....want to make sure that costs are reduced....we have a philosophical diff- FORCING the purchase by Hill- he is explaining that the Mandatory issue is not what it is about- people can not afford it- He is explaining...WHAT is different about their plans...Healthcare is the issue, not insurance issue....He is bringing up that her plan failed the first time- and excluded people that wanted to bring change- and they went behind closed doors- there has to be transparency- HOW we do this has to change.....

enigma4ever said...

Enigma comments:

( G- really good point about teachers- and families too...I had not even thought about the language issue hurting kids- wow)

Finally HE said that Healthcare is something that needs a NEW way to fix- NO MORE back door deals...closed meetings...phew...

enigma4ever said...

Obama:
MANDATE issue being explained..HUGE point and thank god he is eplaining this...about the garnishing of wages...

( Jorge 's question about Commander in Chief has not been answered..)

Hill: is going on about fines....and smirking while he talks ....she is shrill...

Jorge:
Asked his question again...
Hill" You have been saying that he is not ready to be the Commander in Chief...what did you mean by that...

Hill :
I have negogiated for women and children ( kosovo??)...blah and blah ......she is off subject- STILL has not answered his question...( sounds disjointd and talks about WHY she is readyu- but has not answered WHY Obama can not be Commander In Chief)..

Obama:
I would not be running if I did not think I was ready to be Commander in Chief...talks about the Troops and the military familes and their burden....and THE MOST IMPORTANT FORIEGN DECISION ABOUT IRAQ....he brings up afganhsitan..pakistan etc etc. etc...everyone is listening to him- watch the commentators....JUDGEMENT IS AN ISSUE....
I have

enigma4ever said...

the Surge Question....
Hill:
saying her usual stomp speech...

blah balh....applause..

Obama:
he is giving a good answer.....strategic blunder...and now he is bringing up the McCain issue...wisdom about the Original Decision about being there....
Burden placed on the VETS and their families..PTSD...etc etc( Hill never talks about the families and VETS suffering)....12 Billion dollars a month is not available to what needs to done for the VETs or here or at home..

enigma4ever said...

BREAK....

enigma4ever said...

sorry- went to get a drink...
( I can't stand that she kind of smirks and smiles to herself while he talks- so disrespectful- she does not even look at him while he speaks)

( Jorge is asking about how the Nomination will be picked)

Hill:
well I think the rules matter..

Obama:
I think the Will of the Voters is important....that we have a govt listening to them again...Finally....People want to feel heard again..Common Purpose and Higher Purpose...People are tired of the Govt being by the Connected and the Powerful...

Campell:
In Times of Crisis what is the moment that tested you the most....?

Obama:
I would say it was the trajectory...of my life...taking responisiblity for me and how I can bring people together....( he is wandering a little)...Those experiences helped me learn to work with people...

Hill:
I have lived through some crisis- everyone know that ( she never ever talks about how it emotionally effected her- and she avoids it) "How do you do it" I shake my head in wonderment ( blah blah...something about How only she and Mccain were invited...okay she is trying to wax poetic...blah blah....cirkey if she whipes out tears right now I will puke....) she sounds fake....camera panning away.....( oh christ she is blinking......) OPh shit what a load and I am asooooooooo honored...blah bhad.....

enigma4ever said...

fianlly it is over...
Chelasea has rusehd to the stage dressed in a New Amish Outfit with tears in her eyes- glistening with pride...( gag me ).....

Obama gracious as always....holding her chair shaking her hand....

Okay I am off to find Pepsi...

Lay it on me THOUGHTS???

Gryphen said...

I do not think this debate moved the needle in either direction. It was essentially a draw.

I think that Hillary's last statement was very powerful and will probably get a lot of air play.

I also thought that she was going to tear up for a moment and was bracing for it. But then she took it in a very interesting direction even giving Obama what seemed like a genuine compliment.

Some of the talking heads have pointed out that it seemed almost like a concession speech. I almost feel that it was a moment where she let her disappointment show in how her campaign has been going and perhaps she even made room for the fact that she could surrender gracefully to Obama's inevitable nomination.

I guess I think it may have been a moment when we saw her attain enlightenment (That line is for Enigma) about her chances.

Mike said...

I like your assessment for the most part however i think Hillary's closing statement was as phony as a 3 dollar bill..............she has no credibility or sincerety.

Obama CLEARLY won the debate, he smasghed it out of the ball park when he dismanted her agruments that he is all talk and no substance and has poor judgement and no credibility.

Hillary was rambling and not even answering the questions asked of her particularly the one of why she is ready to step tright in as Commander in CHief and Obama isnt she rambled some BS about visiting 80 countries and being on a committe blah blah blah it was pathetic.........she stood there smirking while he talked like a slimy pompous repug.

Mike said...

I was hoping Obama highlighed her poor judgement and lack of credibility and i loved when he called her silly for nit picking his quote of someone on HIS campaign instead of focussing on real issues she acted like he was writing a book of thesis and stole some elses words without giving proper credit..........truly pathetic it shoes she has nothing and has to deflect and distract from the real issues because she cant compete with him or Edwards on a level playingfield.

enigma4ever said...

Mike:
Thanks for your thoughts, love your comments...I too thought the ending was soooo strange- and another Hill WTF???? moment...if she had "cried again" - who knows what I would have heaved at the TV...but I rewatched it...and I have to say maybe it was concessional...

Gryphen:
I have to say that I think Obama did great...he was very presidential...and poised...good grace....and he refused to get in the gutter with her- about the words issue....he was amazing....Haha about the "enlightenment.." I don't know what that Finale was ...I really don't....

enigma4ever said...

Mike: thank you for saying that last statement lacked sincerity....I was worried it was just me sitting here thinking it looked fake ( I mean the audience jumped up all slapclappy)......

Mike said...

Enigma said "I have to say that I think Obama did great...he was very presidential...and poised...good grace..."


EXACTLY............he looked presidential and she looked like a pompous brat smirking, not looking him in the eye and not addressing many of the questions asked of her but just rambling.

Fran said...

Hey~ Just reading up-- I have no access to these cable/dish private debates.
What I'm confused about was you said these were closed debates- but then there was both booing & applause? Either they were opened or the camera crew was really rowdy???

Sounds like the plaigairism topic was put to rest.... as if Hill does not have people help wite her stuff. Please.
WE are about to head into 5 YEARS of an awful illegal war, over a million died & she wants to discuss political speechwriting?

I don't give a rip about speechwriters-- I want to know if they will shut down (and burn/doze) Guantanamo bay prison.
When will we get the hell out of Iraq & Afghanistan.
Burn the Patriot act or repeal the bulk bullshit parts of it.

Anyway... thanks for the play by play

Mike said...

Also........(sorry to ramble myself)

But another thing that stood out in my mind is that Obama looked sincere while she looked calculated and contrived..........did you notice how he seemed to be addressing the WHOLE nation as a president would, while she seemed to be focus on just Texas and Ohio because she wanted something from them (namely their votes)..........it just seemed very transparent and calculated when she kept mentioning Protecting jobs in Texas and Ohio and other issues that she narrowly targeted to those states rather than the nation as a whole...........it really seemed like she only cares about those she needs at the moment and that she is merely mouthing words and will say anything just to get elected.

enigma4ever said...

Mike:
you really pick up the subtle nuances- excellent- that is what it was- the Pander to the audience ( specific) vs. Obama speaking to WE THE PEOPLE.....that is it - exactly.....

Fran:
the debate in Texas had a "stage" audience- 1500 tickets were given to the DEM party there to "give out" to their People, and a small number was lotteried to students...
BUT the Debate was NOT open to the Public.

AND the reason I mention this- is because the Debate here next tuesday is exactly the same- 1500 DEM tickets and then the College and local TV station both have a handful of tickets to get in- for students and public- so it really stinks....( I have entered all the lotteries I can,and submitted questions...and even gave my name to the Event coordinator today - because I happened to stand with her for the Michelle Speech- she was very nice- and she even agreed that she is not happy with how the students are being short changed....they do have a bunch of Debate parties planned on campus....school is even cancelled that day...CSU is being very gracious to the Candidates....)and that is why it was a treat for Michelle to be able to announce he is coming to Ctown on Sat night- so students can come and see him....

ABout the Debate- parts of it are all taped over on Obamas Site- enjoy...( I think almost all of it is there)

enigma4ever said...

Mike: I just reread what you wrote- but you are not rambling- you have good thoughts- about the JOB issue in Ohio and Texas....NAFTA is a REAL issue- and she can not run from that- I always watch to see if she will dance around the issue or is proud of THAT from the Clinton years too????

Fran said...

Would the candidates speak with Raul Castro, replacing his brother Fidel in Cuba.

Obama expressed a willingness to move quickly toward a meeting with Castro's replacement, in line with his previous commitment to hold direct talks with leaders of hostile countries if he is elected president.

Clinton was more cautious, saying Cuba should first make progress on long-standing U.S. complaints about the need to improve human rights and release political prisoners.

Wow! The irony of this statement Clinton made. Funny she should happen to bring up both human rights AND political prisoners in Cuba. Can you say Guantanamo Prison? The United States dirty little gulog?
I mean seriously Hill-- are we being punk'd or what?

Hillary starring in an episode of *The pot calls the kettle black*. or Throwing stones from glass (white) houses, not a good idea.

D.K. Raed said...

Got home late, but just watched it on the DVR & read through your comments here. You do an excellent job of capturing it in real time, Enigma!

Like Gryphen, I was a little worried in the beginning because Hillary was hogging all the airspace & droning. If you don't pay attn, it seems like she's making points. But when you listen, it's all blaaaah.

I thought Obama outshone her with sincerity & depth & a real grasp of the issues, rather than just parroting stale stock answers. I'm glad they both over rode the CNN hosts on the health care issue. This really deserves a lot of face-to-face time, so why do the debate hosts always try to cut them off just when they are getting into the crux.

The "xerox" point that got Hillary booed was just horrible. Worse, she looked so smug about it ... like she was thinking, so there, gotcha! But then when the crowd booed & Obama said that's not right, her smugness retreated into her std plastered-on debate-face.

And finally, at the end, I too was afraid she was about to tear-up. Found myself gripping the edge of the couch arms. I thought the handshake was a nice touch, couldn't tell if it was scripted, but even if it was, it was still the good sport show all pros make after a tough negotiation.

Re: the crowd's standing ovation as she played nice at the end ... I think they knew the debate was over & were giving the S.O. like always happens at the end -- not for her ending remark, but for the end of the debate.

enigma4ever said...

I loved your synopsis DK....and I hope you are right...really....
( good thing she didn't cry- I can name atleast 10 of us that would have screamed!!!!)

Renegade Eye said...

See this.

enigma4ever said...

All really valid points....

thanks for the article....

I am MORE concerned it was a lobbyist- than anything else....makes no difference about his "romance"....

( BTW Hill is not clean on this issue either...)

Christopher said...

Good job, Enigma!

enigma4ever said...

thanks....I will be here tuesday nightliveblogging the Ohio debate....( since it is not open to the public)......

Christopher said...

Enigma,

The SS and the Dallas PD is trying to kill Obama.

They stopped screening people on their way into the Reunion Arena an hour before he appeared.

Aw, can I direct these dumb fucks to the legacy of John Kennedy? Martin Luther King, Jr.? Robert Kennedy?

I am very troubled by this.

an average patriot said...

Except for her beating the Plagiarism dead horse I thought she was uncharacterisctically civil! I just heard that a motorcycle cop leading her to a gathering was killed in an accident but I don't know specifics!

enigma4ever said...

Patriot:
The Motorcycle officer was killed, one station said event was cancelled and she went and met with family....I don't know details....very sad. In Dallas.


Christopher:
I too worry about his and Michelle's safety...I hope and pray that he is better protected...is there any chance manpower was diverted due to the Accident Crisis with Hill's motorcade ?

an average patriot said...

Last I heard she expressed sadness then went to the event and was going to call the family when it was aproptiate.

Mauigirl said...

Enigma, will try to join you for Tuesday's live blogging - didn't realize you were live blogging this last week or I'd have stopped by!

enigma4ever said...

Maui:
No problem..I will be liveblogging it again....I had no idea that there would be 18 of these when I first started...oye...this one should be a interesting one.....